Conversational Research Panels for the Win!

Priscilla McKinney: And let me make sure everything's recording. That looks good. That looks good. Okay. Awesome. Okay. This is gonna be fun. It's just gonna be you and me chatting. So okay.

Andrew Reid: Sounds great. Love it.

Priscilla McKinney: Hello, and welcome to Ponderings from the Perch, the Little Bird Marketing Company podcast. I'm Priscilla McKinney, CEO and Mama Bird over here. This is the podcast where I bring my friends on and we talk. And it's always interesting because I find interesting guests. And Andrew, I get to see you all over the world. And so it's nice to see you virtually now too. Welcome to the show.

Andrew Reid: Thanks for having me on. It's great to be here and great to be having this chat.

Priscilla McKinney: Well, we do get to see each other all over the place. I think my favorite place to see you is Amsterdam, and I think you and I both love Amsterdam, maybe equally as much.

Andrew Reid: Yeah, it's always great. That place is, it's, I've had some amazing meals, I've had some great conversations. Yeah, it's just a great place to go and I hope they, we keep doing insights events there.

Priscilla McKinney: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Okay, if you don't know Andrew Reid, first of all, what are you doing? Where have you been living? But Andrew Reid is the founder and CEO of Rival Technologies. They are the first mobile first insights community platform that was built to help market researchers really unlock that full power of the mobile engagement. This is conversations, unlocking conversations, and Rival Technology has reach three insights.

Which is a part of Rival Group, and it uses these conversations to really understand what consumers are thinking, what they're doing, how those things are changing, and it really puts it in context of everyday life. A particular focus that Andrew has is on integrating the opinions of young people and multicultural consumers, and just those voices that traditional market research just often overlooks, just completely leaves behind. And so that's one of the things I love talking with Andrew about because that is a subject that is near and dear my heart.

But this is going to be a conversation really about the technology that they wield and also, you know, where what is their place here in this market? So let's dive in, Andrew, because you know, you and I like to just get deep right at the beginning. And your family of companies is very powerful because of the technology not only that you use, but a lot of technology that you own. So let's start there by explaining to people what technology you actually own and why that's so powerful in this industry.

Andrew Reid: Yeah, it's interesting in that I'm thinking back to two thousand and, thinking back to 2016 when, so I started Vision Critical back in 2000 and spent a lot of time, you know, initially we were building simulated virtual environments so that packaged goods companies could do test packaging planograms, do volumetric forecasting. That led into communities. And we, you know, grew that business to be quite substantial, really played a big role in cementing insight communities, even coined that term in maybe 2014.

And so back in 2016, I found myself sitting on my couch after work one day and having this feeling of like, why is it that when you're, you know, engaging on social or chatting with friends or doing certain things, you get this dopamine that's firing. And you know, why can't research be part of that? And instead, my observation was, at the time, you know, we were really focused on community. So we had, we had using the power of databases to make sure we didn't have to ask people the same questions over and over again.

But we were still creating this test like experience and using email as the primary communication method. And I felt like those are the two things that we should attack and that no one, people were spending a lot of time in qualitative and reporting. And it was like, well, what if we reimagined quantitative research to make quantitative research still very serious and be able to collect sophisticated data at the same time, you know, make this intrinsically more motivating for the participant, make it feel and mirror chat culture.

Chat culture is all about this sort of leave, return, leave, return. When you think about the conversations you have when you meet someone, you know, how do you mirror those types of interactions instead of having, you know, a progress bar? And, you know, cascading grids, we can still ask those same questions but do them in a different way. We were just lucky. Yeah. Go ahead.

Priscilla McKinney: Okay, when you said progress bar and cascading grids, I kind of fell asleep. And that is exactly what's happening to people. That's totally fair. It's interesting that I didn't know that origin story and what sparked your interest there because it is about capturing that moment where people either completely fan about your company or they're so frustrated with your company.

And those are the two places when you want to hear from people. But that's never when we hear from people in survey taking.

Andrew Reid: Yeah. And then we move, the primary recontact method to be SMS and people don't turn off their SMS notifications. And so when you can, you know, have a notification come up from a brand and you know who that brand is and you've participated, you're probably gonna, you know, you're probably going to answer right away. And if you also know that because this is mobile first and conversational, we're never, you know, you don't want to do a twenty minute survey that way.

You're going to do a five-minute survey. You're going to do a three-minute survey, maybe slightly longer. But you know, the point again is that I always say that our industry has done a bad job of becoming like those awkward ants that want to bear hug you for too long because we want to ask as many questions as we can and we don't know we're going to ask them again, versus having the trust of saying, we can come back to this person. Let's just ask this person, you know, the 10 questions we need to. We can go back tomorrow, the next day, the next week, and ask follow up questions if we want.

Priscilla McKinney: Oh my gosh. Okay. Let me just tell you if the next time I get off a plane, if someone asked me like two questions that were actually relevant to my experience on that flight, I would actually answer them. But the fact that they send me something that will take me twenty five minutes to answer, which just sounds like a scale that they need for their CMO to get their bonus. That's how surveys feel, you know, to me at this point.

Andrew Reid: No, I mean it does. And the funny thing is, is their database knows. They know you sat in fourteen G. They know the plane arrived at gate eighty-five. They know it was twenty minutes late. They know, you know, if you ordered a snack probably, they know all of those things. And so there's a huge opportunity to leverage those behavioral and transactional data points to be able to then also create these personalized experiences. And we're doing that more and more as well.

Not to get off course, but it's, I think it's exciting with what's out there. I feel that our industry is now at a point where we seem to care about how the pizza is made. And that for a long time we really, it was more of like, I just need the data. So it's like, I'm not going to worry about if I worded these questions in a way that's best for the participant. I want to make sure I can analyze it the way, which is understandable. What's the cheapest sample I can get, you know.

Now I think we've entered this new era where people are saying, okay, I really wanna, I really wanna trust the data I have. When I'm doing customer facing.

Priscilla McKinney: Just start there when I'm doing customer facing.

Andrew Reid: When I'm doing customer facing research, I wanna also make sure I'm giving the best experience I can because every brand interaction is a customer interaction, regardless if it's research or not.

Priscilla McKinney: You know, you say that people are doing that, and I wish I lived a little bit more in your world, but you are talking to customers who are more interested in that, and that is wonderful to hear. But I have to say there's a big part of the industry that is still doing the boring, broken stuff. And that does bring me to an interesting point that I think you would have to know, Andrew, to know this, but I'm gonna share this on my podcast.

And that is that you do a lot of interesting talks and overtly helpful conversations and tips with people who are a part of your ecosystem. You and I talk a lot about how you go out and see clients, or you bring maybe four or five, six clients together to come together and talk about issues. So I think you're living in a unicorn world, which I love, and I want to come live in your little unicorn world with you. But tell people a little bit about that mindset you have, you know, at the Rival Group, because it is different.

You know, Rival Technologies is saying, hey, we're not just here to implement technology or to hear for the consumer. We're here to kind of open up the whole conversation and say, what is missing and how could this be better? So what are you doing when you're bringing people together and what are you saying?

Andrew Reid: Yeah, I mean I've been in this industry, Priscilla, for twenty six years. I started Vision Critical when I was twenty-three. I'm turning fifty in less than a month. And so I think watching a bunch of different cycles happen and seeing the cycle we're in with AI, yeah, you definitely are thinking a lot about that brand side researcher and how are they gonna navigate this world. And yes, I'm totally interested in it.

It's, I feel like when you do the right thing, and maybe this is being Canadian or whatever, when you do the right thing, often really good things happen. And when you're, if you're always trying to push your own wares and what you're doing, that's not always of the best service for the brands that you're interacting with. And right now we're in this interesting AI phase where the opportunity for brands to understand what they can potentially do now and then, with that, how that's gonna change their relationship with suppliers, what they're gonna do in their own, even how to navigate conversations with some of these new AI companies that are coming in that are very well funded, that have really great go-to-market motions.

It's like you need to be able to navigate that. And so I started this thing called the Innovation Insiders. And we have a handful of brands that participate in it. And we, you know, produce some content for a couple of hours every month.

We do half day workshops. We're doing a hackathon in person. And again, it's like we're not selling anything. We're not using this as a way to say, my, you know, some folks in the company give me a hard time because they're like, why, where's the hard link to what we sell? And it's like, no, the point of this is more to talk about as this world changes and you can do more and more. I mean, we vibe coded a tab planning tool for a client in a workshop two days ago.

And the client spent four and a half hours watching one of our really talented AI developers do that. And by watching how she interacted and how she, with Claude, asked more questions and got to a point where she started creating this deterministic system that was gonna be able to fit that brand's need was super helpful.

It would have probably been, you know, I could have maybe built something and sold it to them instead. But them being on that journey was great and I think it strengthens the relationship that you have when you do those kinds of things. So, and I have a bit of a technologist myself, that I feel like I have that abundance view, which is that every time there's something new, there's gonna be great opportunities. Yes, we can always talk about the old days, but let's look forward at the new opportunities that these present to us as individuals and as a collective.

Priscilla McKinney: That is so amazing, but what that does to me is just tell me the type of leadership at your group and really the way, like you said, abundance, the way you approach things. So let's solve bigger, better problems. So I wanna kind of pivot just a little bit. One thing I mentioned at the opening is that your technology really has proven over many years to do better at getting to younger and multicultural audiences. Now, I want to put a caveat on that and say, I do happen to know

that you do a very good job getting to an older cohort. So I just want to kind of put the thing out there. It's just like, you know, just because it's conversational and it's text-based doesn't mean this is only for young people. You've proven over and over again that look, humans like to chat. They like this kind of conversation. They are social, right? So it works across the board. But I do want to just highlight a little bit why you guys have been better at getting that younger cohort

and different diverse backgrounds and voices heard because of this approach you've taken. What do you have to say about that?

Andrew Reid: I think it's, I guess it's about choice at one level. You know, if you talk to a seventeen year old who is gaming a lot and you ask them to participate in research, their preference would be like, all right, ask me three questions. Let me flip up my camera, I'll answer all three at once. Like very different than how someone else. So part of it is choice and the fact that

we're trying to make, well, we are making this experience feel conversational. Every time we ask for an open end, we give you the choice to use text, use audio, or use video. And, you know, that just comes out of the box. It's not like some add-on that you decide. That's just human nature of letting people decide how they want to communicate. It's, you know, how do you want to respond? Do you want to respond by email, by SMS, by WhatsApp? We're building an app right now, and then we're gonna be launching some other channels like X and some other areas.

And so, if you're a sports fan, you know, X may be your place because you love to be in the conversation. That's a great place to DM you your invitations to participate. And so I think choice has a bunch to do with it. And then we have some interesting tooling. We have this thing called AI tone refinement, and so that looks at the tone of your survey across, I think there's by default thirty or thirty-two different emotions.

So if you want to be irreverent or funny or be more dry or serious, you can do that. It will decide to pipe in, you know, emojis instead of words depending on what you want. Ironically, what we're finding, it's funny, I'm an old guy now, that it's like the older folks use emojis, the young people don't really. So what's funny is that the seventy seven year old's more likely to send you like the heart emoji than the seventeen or the eighteen year old is.

Priscilla McKinney: Okay, well, I attest that that's completely true. None of my kids use emojis. Mom's so old. That's fine. Okay, so what you're talking about here conversationally, to be honest, it kind of blows the entire data quality conversation up. So is that true? And how do you start approaching

that data quality issue because it is very different for you all than it is for people who are going out and just getting, you know, sample from multiple sources.

Andrew Reid: I mean, I think it comes down to a few things. One is, is the modality, if the modality's great, that's fine. But the minute that you have any incentive that is extrinsic and that can be turned into money, you're gonna see bad actors attack. You know, we were looking at our Twilio bill six months ago and noticing people from, you know, certain countries in the Middle East were

participating in surveys that, you know, didn't fit the criteria of the brands that we were working with. And so we have to constantly stay really diligent around URL manipulation, around when we are giving out external rewards, making sure that we prove these people are real. There's a lot of interesting little hacks and tricks that you can do. And it takes, it's almost like you need to have everything.

Like we're starting to play in our communities and on our panels with things like prove your real pictures, where it's like, take a picture of your shoe right now, please, and upload it. And we don't really care about the shoe, we care about the metadata that's sitting there and the fact that if you can take it in a certain period of time that we can extract something from that. So there's a bunch of issues. There's the quality issue around are people speeding through surveys to get them done? There's the, are there bad actors? And you need to

wade through all of that and at the same time not create a situation that's so taxing for the participant that gives them this extra load. And so it's a fun challenge and it's not going to stop. I mean, I think we're always going to have to have in certain categories extrinsic rewards. We are fortunate that some of the brands we work with, they really focus on sharing learnings back with people and these other intrinsic measures. And that's great because that keeps

the bar armies away. Then why would they want to participate if there's nothing in it for them besides, you know, learning about something that's going on inside the brand. And so that's like the holy grail, can you get people intrinsically motivated, wanting to participate and giving really quality insights? And that human signal data in this period of time we're in right now is gold if it's really verified.

Priscilla McKinney: Yeah, you know, it is so true because kind of back to the example I gave at the beginning, when I'm getting off that plane, I'm not asking someone to pay me for giving them a survey. I would love to be heard and I would love to know, just as a human, tap into that goodness of going, I want what I share with you to have an impact on how you're doing business. And yeah, I'm not gonna do that for 20 minutes of my time, but if you could make that

pointed and relevant to me, I would resonate with that. And I could move with you. And I don't always need to be, you know, given money as a reward for sharing my opinion. And so I think it's interesting that so many brands haven't tapped into that. And the ones who have maybe haven't tapped into it well, you know. So it's interesting the how the power they could have if they would just

rethink the ecosystem that it's swimming in.

Andrew Reid: And I think that so I think the best brands you're gonna see are gonna be really brave. And the point you made before, which is, you know, all of this is tied to some person's compensation somewhere because these metrics are. And so at one level, the brands are making it difficult for me as a consumer to go and share my opinion. I can share it on social anytime I want. And so knowing that, it's like, how do you make it easier? And the amount of times I'd say in the last six months, I've had a fantastic experience. And I'd love nothing more than to

quickly say, like Susan was fantastic. She checked me in. She saved my day. It's like they make me go through so many steps because of the risk that I'm going to say something bad. And so I do think that everyone talks about being customer-centric. And we're going to see more and more of the brave ones that really are. And those are the ones that are going to make a difference. And it's really the two things, is how do you listen to your

customers and how do you listen to your employees? And those are the things I think that unless we have Neurolink, you know, you need to have conversations to uncover.

Priscilla McKinney: Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna uncover one other thing that really bothers me about surveys, is a lot of times, you know, somebody comes on the phone and helps you. They have been so kind and really tried to help you, but your issue is not resolved and you're still pissed. And surveys don't usually parse that out. So I never give that negative feedback about the situation because I'm so worried that this person who is just doing their job is the person who is going to suffer as opposed to really giving back feedback. And you have to always ask yourself,

why are they asking this? How is this going to be weaponized, really, in the end? That's what I'm thinking. Okay, I've gotten that off my chest. So if you're a brand listening, please just know that that drives me ape shit. Okay. So a little birdie told me an interesting thing about how you guys are building your own panel, which is so interesting right now. You guys have, of course, experience over so many decades building communities,

and helping companies even start from their own small community and build it up from there, creating other communities that people can tap into. So it seems like a natural fit, but I gotta say, I do a lot of competitive landscape work in this industry. And kind of nobody else is building a panel from scratch right now. So please tell me about this, what are you doing and why?

Andrew Reid: Yeah, I well I guess this maybe goes back to the 2016 conversation around like building a new data collection platform. I remember a lot of folks telling me, like, I cannot believe you want to build another data collection platform. There's so many out there. Why would you do that? Panel's kind of the same thing in the fact that we really wanted to have all three pillars, platform, audience, and consulting. The guy I'm related to, Angus, has been

in the panel space in Canada for a long time. And so we merged his companies in with the Rival Group last year. And then with that, made a decision to build a US panel from scratch and to do it in a much more traditional sense, to actually not river sample people. And it's proving to demonstrate to have a lot of high degrees of quality. It's, it definitely is a lift. There's a lot we can do with technology.

That being said, we're very committed to having something that we can use. Obviously having a substantial consulting organization constantly buying sample and looking at the challenges with that, you know, we've got the sort of buy side already a lot of it locked down. And so creating

that base of people made a lot of sense for us. So we're on our way to a hundred thousand. We're gonna push this thing over about a hundred and twenty thousand. So it's not gonna be huge, but big enough that we can do research in a few core areas and also big enough that we can launch some data products. And so I think as I said to you, we've got one that we're just rolling out right now called the Emerging Consumer Index, which is 18 to 30 year olds, and we're doing it every two weeks. And we really

are excited about the opportunity to be in this new syndicated world, which is I think very different than how we looked at those types of data assets in the past.

Priscilla McKinney: Wow. If that were done completely and done well, kind of what's your dream for that?

Andrew Reid: Well, I think that the, I see us, if we can have maybe four or five different indexes. So the Emerging Consumer Index is all about that cohort. I think boomers, especially with the spending power, make a lot of sense. Right now we're finding there's sort of three core use cases that are really exciting. Obviously these categories are interesting. Tracking them every two weeks gives us a good sense of

some of the subtle moves that are happening. The folks, we have a lot of communities. And so for the, you know, 75 plus communities that we run, having the ability to have a data asset and then compare and contrast that against your own customers is exciting. And then, you know, in this world of AI, AI systems need constant human ground truth and signal data to stay grounded. And so

we are gonna be pushing this into some of the data marketplaces. And I think that's, that represents a huge opportunity. I think that's the interesting thing with our industry is that we spend so much time focused on just like insights in our category, and the entire enterprise can benefit from this human data we have now. And so, so that I'd say the, it's not the dream, the goal that we're gonna work towards is

to really push in on that side as well and to be able to work with the AI side of the house at large brands and to provide these data assets to them as well.

Priscilla McKinney: Yeah, but see, you have a collaborative mindset. And I think that also comes from just even you guys are a part of a group. It's the Rival Group, and you have Reach Three, you have, you know, what was, you know, through Angus Reed, you have Rival Technologies. I think you guys just kind of approach things as a collaborative. So I guess to kind of set it up that way, what's next? What's exciting you? Where else do you want

to collaborate? And I'm not really asking a gotcha question about like what's up with growth next, but even the way you approach it with clients and things like that. Do you have kind of a vision or a dream that you would love to see happen in the market research industry?

Andrew Reid: Yeah, I think that we're gonna see, we're already seeing it. We're seeing either research teams get deleted, not because they don't have the money, but because to say, well, AI can handle really complicated. These folks do really complicated. Let's pull this money over and let's rethink how we spend that money. And so in those cases, what do we do? And then we have other situations where I think there's a huge opportunity for these insights teams to play other roles. And so for me it's like we have to grow up

as an industry, and I think that Rival Group has an opportunity to play a big role in this holistic view of the customer. And that instead of having these weird silos where, you know, it drives me crazy, but United Airlines does not take my flying patterns into consideration properly when they think about what they send me.

Or the fact that, you know, I had a shitty experience on the plane last night. And so how do we make sure that we can leverage the human input side to deliver the right experiences, to grow revenue, to have a better client relationship? And I think we can play a real central role in that. And that, you know, it's not a technology blocker anymore. I think it's

again, it's the folks that are really serious about saying let's put the customer first and use this technology to give people experiences and to make sure that we have this continuous thread in all the conversations that we have. And so the bigger vision I would say is if we can, I think custom research is going to continue. I think AI is going to

create a whole bunch of new jobs to be done and new opportunities for our industry that we can tackle. I think the bigger opportunity is standardizing more approaches to research and integrating those into the marketing technology stack in a more significant way than we've done before. And I think folks that do that and are able to deliver that and deliver those experiences,

I think can make a huge impact. Right now we're hugely fortunate. The last time we pulled all of our global data, we found that we were getting an eighty-seven percent completion rate. Eighty-seven percent of the time people finish a Rival survey. Now, these are often no more than twenty questions, and so they're shorter and there's a bunch of reasons. That's pretty exciting. Email marketing would love to have, you know, even take away a decimal point, they'd still love to have that number.

So I think you're gonna start to see, ideally, our technology used not just for research, but for more marketing and brand communications as well, because it's interactive, it's conversational, and can be a huge benefit to the participant and to the brand.

Priscilla McKinney: I love it. And it just, to me, it just demonstrates that what you're doing at the Rival Group is really about purpose built AI systems. Like not just, let's implement it somehow, but this idea that there's a meaningful step in there to say how can we get better questions? How can we

ignite richer responses from people and, whenever you do that, of course, that's gonna be confidence and decision making. That's gonna let people go out and even take risks in business because they're gonna feel very confident about some of this rich data that's coming back that looks very different from what they've seen from traditional research.

Andrew Reid: And I'll just pile on and say if an LLM is going to make the recommendation that makes you decide to link up with a brand, it's all that much more important that that brand figures out how to keep that relationship going with you. Because, you know, I'm not gonna plan out a business trip using Expedia in the future. I'm gonna just have my agent do that. There's a lot of things that they're gonna make those choices. And we have a product called AI Listening, which is about

understanding how agents think about brands and there's some things you can do slowly to start to change those courses, but based on what I, on that fact alone, it just means it's that much more important to make sure you're doing everything you can to deliver the best experience.

Priscilla McKinney: Yeah, oh my gosh. Do you see why I have people like Andrew on the show? People, you're hearing not only what the technology is out there, but how they're thinking. And I think that's really important right now, the mindset shift that we have, the way we're tackling challenges in the industry. It is about what Andrew said, this abundance, like what could be? Yeah, you know, and not putting on our market research or marketing hat, but really saying as a human, this is how I want to be treated. As a human, this is how I interact.

This is how I would be motivated to share my info. But Andrew, just as a huge thank you for coming on, if you are interested in more about what happens over at the Rival Group and all the Rival Group companies, go visit them at rivaltech.com. And also Andrew obviously is super approachable. It's Andrew A N D R E W. Reid R E I D out on LinkedIn, find him. And if you're ever so lucky, then just meet up with him in Amsterdam like I do.

Andrew Reid: Or in Austin. Exactly. Yeah, and Rival Group dot IO.

Priscilla McKinney: Or Austin, that was a good one too.

Andrew Reid: Rival Group dot IO is also where you'll find kind of the mothership, which has Rival Tech, Angus Reed, which is our Canadian consulting brand that we use, and Reach Three, which is our US consultancy. Yeah, this has been lots of fun. I really appreciate you and all the questions you have. And I appreciate what you're doing for the industry. I think having a strong independent voice that is out there and that is helping

people navigate this because it's weird out there right now. There's a lot of noise, trying to find the signal in the noise. Everyone's doing their best to cold call you or find you anywhere they can. And so trying to find trusted voices is tough and you've been one for quite a while, Priscilla.

Priscilla McKinney: Hmm. Well, I totally appreciate it, but I'm serious about the see ya real soon somewhere in some let's pick an exotic place. So awesome. From all the peeps here at Little Bird Marketing, have a great day and great marketing.

Andrew Reid: Sounds great.

Priscilla McKinney: Okay. You know what? Do you wanna record that last thing? Because I really messed up with, I think maybe we could do that last part again because I had rivaltech dot com and I really do, I mean, I think part of the point of this is to really help understand the migration of the whole thing. What was the other one you

Andrew Reid: I know, Rival Tech dot com is great. Well no, Rival Group dot io.

Priscilla McKinney: Okay, hold on. Let's just redo our ending. So we'll repeat some of those things. Okay.

Andrew Reid: Yeah, and then I'm gonna go away and figure out how to make my lights not turn off all the time.

Priscilla McKinney: Yeah, it's all right. Okay, hold on, I'm just dropping this down.

Andrew Reid: Luckily it only did it like three times, not five times.

Priscilla McKinney: Yeah. Okay, here's the ending of it. Well, what I try and do here on this podcast is get strong independent voices. And you heard one of them here, Andrew. Just as a huge thank you for coming on, sharing your expertise, and more importantly, sharing your mindset. I love this vision and just casting something that is possible for all of us. But definitely if you want to hear more about what they're doing, go to rivalgroup.io and you'll see the whole family of companies. Just real quick, Andrew,

what's all involved in the company?

Andrew Reid: Yeah, so that's where you're gonna see Rival Tech, which is the platform. Angus Reed is our Canadian consulting arm and Reach Three is our US consulting arm. And then, well, we also have a bunch of information about our audiences, our panels in Canada and the US. And thank you, Priscilla. It's great to have you as, you know, an independent voice, really helping people navigate a very crowded, changing landscape. So thanks for all that you bring.

Priscilla McKinney: Yeah. Yeah, I do love it. So if you're ever so lucky to go to Amsterdam or Austin and get to see Andrew, I highly recommend it. Five stars. He's super fun. But from all the peeps here at Little Bird Marketing, have a great day and happy marketing.

Priscilla McKinney: Okay.