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          *\*This episode of Ponderings from the Perch is brought to you by The Logit Group. If you've got a market research project coming up and you want expert help, get a* [*quote*](http://logitgroup.com/get-a-quote) *today.*\* The competitor sitting across the room is not the biggest risk to your insights business.   On this episode of Ponderings from the Perch, the Little Bird Marketing podcast, host and CEO[Priscilla McKinney](https://www.linkedin.com/in/priscillamckinney/) sits down with[Rianne van der Loo](https://www.linkedin.com/in/rianne-van-der-loo-6a09103/), managing director of the[Data and Insights Network](https://datainsightsnetwork.nl/), the professional association that brings together agencies, client-side researchers and tech companies across the Netherlands. Van der Loo spent more than a decade at Google answering decision-makers' questions about data. Leading an association asks something very different of her, and of everyone who works in market research insights. Every firm in the insights space wants the industry to grow stronger, and almost none of them want to be the one who goes first. Sharing what works feels like handing over an advantage. Holding it back feels safe, until everyone in the room does the same. Guarding your playbook only makes sense if your competitor is the thing standing between you and growth. “There’s a lot of uncertainty in the market,” Rianne explains. “The risk is in not collaborating at all.” The cost of staying quiet never shows up on a single invoice.[Customer insights](https://littlebirdmarketing.com/market-research/) lose their seat at the table one unclaimed decision at a time, and the people who understand the customer best end up watching marketing effectiveness measurement happen without them. An industry that refuses to share may find it has very little left worth protecting. Music written and performed by[Leighton Cordell](https://www.linkedin.com/in/leighton-cordell-06155ab9/). **Sponsors:** Priscilla McKinney is not just a CEO; she is also a [LinkedIn Influencer](https://littlebirdmarketing.com/social-influence-course/). The reality is that very few people are using LinkedIn efficiently or effectively, and if you’re not careful, social media can become a black hole. When you emerge, you find you wound up in a place you never intended to go and you’re wondering where all the time went. Time is precious, and trying to be everything to everyone means becoming nothing to no one. That's why she's developed a transformative 12-week course that goes beyond basic tips and tricks – teaching you how to build a strategic network and create stellar content that cuts through the LinkedIn noise. Click [here](https://littlebirdmarketing.com/social-influence-course/) to learn more, and sign up for a spot in her social influence course today! Ever feel like your marketing plan is just... meh? You've got the pieces, but are they really working together? We often find that even when companies are doing the right things, they may not be doing them in the right order. The results are, well, no results. Curious how you can effectively evaluate your marketing efforts? Want clarity on your next best strategic move? Take our [Marketing Assessment Quiz](https://littlebirdmarketing.com/marketing-assessment/) and in just minutes, discover exactly where you stand – and where you could be going. Click [here](https://littlebirdmarketing.com/marketing-assessment/) and take the quiz today and don’t leave success to chance. View full Transcript **Priscilla McKinney:** Hello and welcome to Ponderings from the Perch, the Little Bird Marketing Company podcast. I'm Priscilla McKinney, host with you as always. I'm the CEO and Mama Bird over here. And this is my show where I get to have amazing people come on and talk. And I mean, you you all know, like I'm around the world at conferences, and I just feel so lucky to get to meet amazing people. And then I actually follow up. Like I get to talk with them and the relationship gets deeper. And now this is like maybe three or four times that Rianne and I have gotten to meet at this place in the last, which just, you know, spoiler alert, we were just in Spain together and we were both sweating heavily. So maybe that's not the best way to start the podcast, but Rianne van der Loo, welcome to the show. **Rianne van der Loo:** Thank you so much, Priscilla. Really nice to be here. And indeed, like we met first at IIEX here in Amsterdam. We sat at the lunch table together quite randomly. And at first we were both looking at our phones, I remember. And at some point we started talking and it was such a nice conversation. And I think we ended that conversation with you saying, like, you should be on my podcast, and like here I am, and it's it's really great because it's also very easy to not follow up. So amazing to be here. Yeah. **Priscilla McKinney:** Yeah. Yeah. But we really connected. And I think it's really interesting when you ask people about what like what they're really passionate about and what kind of like get them kind of in a dream state. Like wave your magic wand. What would you love to happen at your work? And then we started thinking about like all the possibilities. And I think that's a much better conversation than what do you do? And you know, how do you do it? And this kind of stuff. So I think, you know, we're both a little bit of dreamers. And I think that's what like, you know, got us like, hey, let's let's talk some more. And then of course we were just at SOR in Valencia, Spain, and gotten got to meet several other people. And it's nice also, you know, as you and I are talking, we, you know, bring other women into those conversations and just make it bigger and bigger. But let me tell you a little bit about Rianne. She is a data and insights leader, of course, who brings that that real analytical thinking. But with that skill where you can make sense of it all, right? In order to help organizations make better decisions. And that is like the bottom line. You know, data and insights, great, but for what? Really helping steward those insights over to decision making. And this is where it her career kind of took a little bit of a turn. She's so passionate about building a more diverse workforce. And making a better place really for her own kids, her own family. But that kind of led her to think about what is that future of work. And so now she is leading the Data and Insights network. And it really is a different turn from working at an end client to really helping the industry go forward. So we're gonna talk a little bit about that. And kind of back to that conversation, Rianne, you and I struck up a conversation, we hit it off, but we were talking a little bit about collaboration. And so let's kind of talk about that from your perspective, running the data and insights network. First of all, tell people what that is and kind of how you see that as a collaborative effort. **Rianne van der Loo:** Yes. Yes, so as you mentioned, I'm the managing director for the Data and Insights network here in the Netherlands, and we are the network organization or the professional organization for everything in the insights ecosystem basically. So our members are market research agencies but also market research and insights professionals at the end customers and also many companies from the tech space. Which is now obviously growing quite a lot in the inside space. And we combine traditional market research with also more the new data analytics type of customer insights. And the insights part is really what binds us. And we try to bring the whole ecosystem together here in the Netherlands through the many different things that we organize as a network. **Priscilla McKinney:** Mm-hmm. And so you're you're bringing obviously we connected about this whole idea of networking. How do we expand things for people? But you then provide opportunities for both the insight side, so the the buyer and then the seller of research. And so you're asking people to come in and work together to network, but there's also a lot of collaborative opportunities there, not the the most simple ones I think would be sponsorships, hey. You know, Priscilla, your company XYZ can sponsor this networking luncheon or something like this or a lunch and learn. So there's some of the obvious collaborations, but maybe tell us what a few of those are and tell us is there something even more complicated? Is there something more complex about what you're looking to get people to do to collaborate? **Rianne van der Loo:** Yeah. Yeah, well I mean it's it's no news that that the industry the insights industry is is changing, right? There's so much going on with the introduction of AI and everything that's happening, there's a lot of uncertainty in the market. And I truly believe that we can only tackle that uncertainty, and we can only become stronger as an industry if we work together. We need to collaborate. I think that's when I started in this in this role, I heard quite a lot of pushback from people saying, Hey, I don't want to be on stage telling my best practices. Because my competitors will be in the room as well. And I honestly would really like to challenge that because I don't think the risk is in collaborating with your competitor, right? I think the risk is in not collaborating at all. And I think we can become stronger as an industry and also become stronger, you know, in this uncertain future when we collaborate. It's not a zero sum game, if you ask me. I think there's we can really expand the industry if we work together and if we make sure that we position ourselves in the right way. And as you mentioned, like as a network we obviously orchestrate the the typical collaboration between agencies and customers and tech in our flagship events, for example. But this morning we hosted an AI breakfast here for researchers. Here in the office, we were with 20 people. We kept it very small on purpose to have a really open conversation. Instead of you know only doing presentations where people listen to, we really want people to lean in. And it's amazing what you what you see happening there, right? People are so open, and I mean they are all in a way competitors, but they are so open and so willing to share and so vulnerable also to to talk about the things that they find difficult in this market because it is a difficult time, right? Let's not let's not forget that. And I think you know, people leave here with so much energy because they they do that that sharing face to face like together in the room and it feels so positive and I think by by being able to to orchestrate that as a as a as an association yeah that's something that I find really important and I'm very proud that we can do that. **Priscilla McKinney:** Yeah. You know, that I want to kind of underscore something you're saying there. You are managing an association at a time that the whole industry is in a pretty serious flux. And I think we could say that that, you know, AI, of course, is disrupting every single line of business. But the particular flux for insights industry, in my opinion, is also pushing at the very root of, you know, how do we think about our roles? What are we really providing? And you spent over a decade over at Google. You were client side. So you have a perspective about how you manage a career and how you go through ups and downs in a career with a company. How do you think that prepared you? What are your thoughts now that you, you know, you didn't go through that AI shift while you were at Google? You're doing that leading the industry. So how how do you think that time at Google kind of informs you and and is helping you, you know, help other people navigate this change? **Rianne van der Loo:** Yeah, so it's I think it's a little bit of a natural progression in anyone's career basically, but I think it it's being emphasized in this time of change. But I think when I started, I started my career at Boston Consulting Group and then joined Google as an analyst. My role was to provide the answer, right? That was sort of my job. I looked at the data, whether that was from the client or from Google, I looked at the data and I I I got the answers. I answered the questions that were most top of mind from from the customers that I worked with and I think the further you get in your career, but especially when the times are so uncertain as they are at the moment, it's less about providing the answer, but it's much more about orchestrating the discussion, bringing the right people together, making sure that that those connections are being made, making sure that the discussion is being held. Find different opinions. I was I was at the World Summit AI in here in Amsterdam yesterday and and somebody in a panel said, you know, we the human brain learns by friction. That is that is how we work. That is how we are how our brains are are trained to learn. And you need to have that discussion with real people, right? You need to have that discussion within the industry as well. I think in the industry at the moment there are quite some different opinions regarding what the future looks like. The whole debate of sort of the traditional qualitative research versus AI-driven qualitative research at scale. There's there's well there's there's quite some emotion as in that discussion as well and I think that's great and and I don't wanna sort of walk away from that or you know take a hard stance as an association, but I wanna facilitate that discussion and and make sure that we yeah we meet each other in that debate. **Priscilla McKinney:** Mm-hmm. Well, you are facilitating a lot of discussions over here and then over here in different pockets. What what is it that you wish people would talk about more? Like what what's the conversation people aren't having that you you want to spark? **Rianne van der Loo:** Mm-hmm. So over the last year the discussion here and there was still about AI versus traditional, basically. That's that's how we were referring to it. My feeling is that we the discussion has moved further than that at the moment. So I don't think we we are discussing whether AI is going to play a role in the insights industry anymore. I think we are it's pretty clear that it does. The question is more on what will the insights ecosystem and also the insights function within a company and the insights you know the role that agencies and and companies and tech play what will that look like and what is the you know how can how can we create an industry where the human and the and the AI work together, right? And and and make sure that that that one plus one is is is not two, but it's more than that. It's probably way more than that. And I think we are having much more discussion on that and on sort of Y what is he I think that there will be there will be less talk about sort of the the process of research in itself and much more about okay, we have these findings, you know, how do we make sure that that the data that is going in there, you know, the the actual respondent, how do we make sure that the quality is really high? Or how do we make sure that we we put a human layer on top of the results and and we make that translation into what the end customer actually needs, right? And and how we can make a large impact with insights at at the final decision making table. And I think that discussion on how we make sure that we we we shape that insights industry and we increase our impact instead of you know fearing that we diminish the role of insights. I think that is the debate that we should have and I think it's it's already moving in that direction. **Priscilla McKinney:** Yeah, I I would totally agree. And I think it's about maybe us changing the way we talk about things. Maybe it's not really about methodology. Well, of course, it's about method. I mean, you have to get it right. There's rigor and methodology, but I mean how we go out to market and how we talk to people who consume the insights, changing our language in a way to where we're even not calling it research, calling it data. And really, you know, we for years everybody talked about agile and the democratization of it. Well, really, if we're gonna democratize the access to the research that has been done, well, that truly means that more people besides researchers are consuming it. And so if it's completely cloaked in research and methodology language, that's not gonna make sense out in the business world. It has to be just about the data. Here's the facts, here's the consumer thoughts, here are their opinions. And you know, this it really brings it down to becoming, you know, customer insights professionals that we are here to provide the data that is coming directly from the customer. And I I think that change in our industry of maybe n decloaking it of all of these special terms is the thing that is gonna get more people. So it's not the title of the market researcher or the director of market research that we might be talking to. Maybe we could be talking to the creative director, or maybe we could talk to the CMO, or maybe we could talk to the hiring specialist, age someone in HR. Like all of a sudden, there are a lot of people who need the data that is being created. But before the insights industry, I feel like just catered to putting it all through a host and then delivering it to this one pipeline just to the other researchers. Yeah. **Rianne van der Loo:** Yeah. Yeah, and very much in the background, right? And I think we can be much more in the forefront. And I think AI actually enables insights to play a much bigger role within companies, right? You democratize insights. I mean if you look at what some large companies are already doing, right? They have this, they build this insights hub within their company where they they make it so accessible for the whole company to continuously base everything that they do on consumer insights. I mean, back in the day you could maybe do, you know, two or three research projects within a year, and now you can continuously use customer insights in your decision making. And some of that may be done with digital twins or synthetic data, and some of it may be done with real humans, and some of it may be done through you know, qualitative interviews, and some of it may be done through an AI solution. And I mean you have so much possibilities, and I think it it only makes it it it only makes the the opportunity bigger and therefore also the positioning of insights within a company. So that's a that's an opportunity, but we do need to grab that and I think it's it's sometimes not in the nature of a market researcher to to take that stage, right? And to to claim that important role. And I think that's that's that's something that we should talk about. Yeah. **Priscilla McKinney:** Yeah, I love it. I love it. Okay, you are at an interesting place in our ecosystem. And if you want to check this out, look for DI Network. So data, insights network, but it's DI network dot NL for Netherlands. But check that out if you work at all in Europe and are doing any kind of insights function. That definitely could be a real positive for you. But what would be a win? Like what's what's alright, like on your next task list for the Data and Insights network, what do you need? **Rianne van der Loo:** So I mean part of it is what what we just talked about, right? To to to really elevate that role of insights within within companies and within also the perception in the market. So I mean that's that's the, it would be, you know, big shoes to fill to do that all as an association, but I think we can play a role by by being that that that stage, right? We can't we want to be the stage for for insights to the outside world. So that's what we're really trying to do, to to bring people together to develop that knowledge within task forces and communities, and to really build a stage for people to take to get this message out there. So that's something that we we really do and and and if we you know if we can contribute even though if it's only if it's only with small steps but if we can contribute to to elevating the insights profession I think that's something that that that we yeah that we would be really proud of. So that collective progress basically, I think that's that's something that is that is very important to us. **Priscilla McKinney:** Think I've put it in those words before collective progress. I think that is so, that is so key because I was just at an event in New York, ResTecker event, and it really, I mean, it it I felt very, very fortunate was an invite-only event. And to that point, I sponsored it. So I also would say, you know, Rianne, I'm sure you're looking for sponsors, you know, to do it, but people need to step up and sponsor these things. But I felt very privileged to be in that room because there were people there who, of course, were all trying to advance our career. We're trying to look for business. Of course, we're trying to do that. But also the way you do that is it can contribute to the overall good of the industry. It can help shape this industry. It can help elevate what we're doing. And of course, I'm not a researcher, but my, you know, my lifeblood comes from the market research industry. And you know, for me, I think there is there are two ways to go about it. Sure. Go over there and build your business and just look at, you know, biz dev. But come over here and do biz dev and grow your career and sponsor something at Data and Insights Network. And you you get so much more, kind of to your point of one plus one equals way more than two. And you know, I I I think I think that's super industry inter interesting and it's a great approach. What l let's just say I'm an individual and I haven't come to an event, you know, with you. Like what would I expect and you know, what what what do you think is fair to say that I would gain from coming to one of the events? **Rianne van der Loo:** Mm-hmm. So it's not only events, right? It's I think it's it's it's to be part of an association is is a broad experience. So it's the same as being part of any association, right? I mean, you can also be part of your local tennis club or something. Why do you do that? Because you want to feel that you're part of something and that you can also contribute to that, right? You want to to feel like it's your place with your people, and I think what's really nice to see is within our association, people they come here to to develop knowledge, to broaden their their expertise. They do that by working with with others in the industry. I mean, obviously, people work with their own colleagues on a daily basis, but it can be so refreshing to work with people from a completely different perspective. If you work at an agency, it's super nice to collaborate with somebody that works at the client side, but not in an agency-client relationship, but as you know, two people that feel passionate about the topic and I think that's something that you can only find in an association because there's no you know there's no sort of direct commercial reason to work together in that sense it's really driven from a passion and from from a desire to make the collective better. And I think that's something that people find in professional organizations, professional associations, and also here with us. And you know, we then at the same time provide you with that stage, right? So you can you can speak at events, you you will, you know, we talk about you on our socials and in the newsletters. And it's also very nice for your personal networking and personal development, because let's not, you know, pretend as if that's not important, right? Of course, that's important. So I think that's also a really good reason to be part of an association and to be an active member. And of course, at these events, you know what I mentioned, I mean, it can be a large flagship event where you you meet the ecosystem and you you you learn and you you come perhaps also with a with more of a business agenda. But also these really small events where you just you get together and you you connect to people in real life. I think that's that's something yeah, at least we get the feedback that that's something very valuable. Yeah. **Priscilla McKinney:** Yeah. Well, I I will like to say, of course, I mean the Netherlands is a small country, so you've got a small association, but you have all these global companies who do work in your country who are sponsoring and supporting that. But you are experienced in this and there are a lot of s other smaller, even in the US, a lot of regional chapters of different small associations. What have you learned like trying to get sponsorship and trying to get people to come and network? Like what are some lessons you felt like you learned that you could give some good advice to someone else who's doing what you're trying to do, bringing people together to collaborate more. **Rianne van der Loo:** Yeah, so I think it's it needs to start with with a really like an honest sort of passion for a topic, right? We cannot force it it's all, you know, especially in the the the the the expertise and sort of the task forces and the communities that we run. It's all voluntary. So it really we cannot tell people what to do, right? We cannot tell them to work on a certain topic or on a certain white paper. It needs to come from people themselves. So we we spend a lot of time on how we can be that platform, right? Where all of this happens. But you really need to look for the passion in somebody, right? So I talk to so many people within the industry, and I always try to find that spark or that that's that specific interest where we can build upon. And then you know, honestly, a lot of the the the stuff that that also is necessary to run this association, like sponsors, etc. I I feel that it really comes from there. If they also see that they can connect to an audience that is so passionate on a on a certain topic, and that they can really build their network with, you know, with these kind of of professionals, I think then then you have something very valuable. But it needs to be it needs to be authentic, right? It's it's not just, you know, putting a lot of people in a room and then, you know, good luck with it right it needs to I think it's it's the value of your network is really the quality of the people that you have in there and and and that's what we're trying to build and then sort of the yeah the the the the surrounding necessities and the and the sponsorships etc they they feel more natural and and what we also do is we have a lot of great partners that that really are super important to us when it comes to organizing events but we really have a long term relationship relationship with them. So it's we cannot be too opportunistic in that, right? It's it it really needs to be a partnership. And that's something that we work on really hard. So it's it's really working with them, also what's important for them, really listening to them, really trying to find the right audience, bring that mix of people. So it's it's yeah. Don't look at it as an as an easy sales trick, right? It's really it's we're really working towards long term partnerships with with all the companies that are a member of our association and also with with the partners that make our events possible. **Priscilla McKinney:** Yeah, I love that. That's just saying, look, I'm not just looking for your money. I'm looking to create something valuable that will help you and your team take the next step, expand the the industry at the same time, elevate all of our jobs. And along the way, we're all gonna learn something as people too. And I I'm gonna underscore something you said. You said the value of your network is the quality of people in there. And I I just can't agree more, which is why Rianne, you and I will always be friends. I'm just collecting really valuable people. I love it. Thanks so much for talking with us about this. Again, you can go to dinetwork.nl and learn more about this. If you're doing business globally, this could be a nice, you know, a nice piece of the puzzle. How you are getting some brand lift, how are you engaging your people, how you are going, maybe yourself to learn. And maybe you don't live in the Netherlands, but like me and like several of us, we come through all the time. And this is a great way to expand your network and get to come network with people you don't normally see. So find out what they're doing. If you're taking the next trip to Europe and you know, have some some time you can allot to really personal growth within your industry, you know, go check out and see what events they have. And if that would be a great, yeah, I love it. I love it. **Rianne van der Loo:** Always welcome. Yeah. Always welcome and always yeah. Feel free to reach out if there's anything that that people want to talk about or yeah, and always I mean indeed if even if you don't live in the Netherlands and you're in Amsterdam, you're always welcome at one of our events. So yeah, that's that's definitely something yeah that we we we want to encourage people to connect with us. Yeah. **Priscilla McKinney:** I love it. I love it. Well, I definitely will come make it to one. Obviously, you can find her on LinkedIn. There's a lot of these things are all connected in the show notes. Please go take a look over there. And as always, if you can comment wherever you found this podcast, if you like this, if you like this episode, please do go share it with somebody. If you have a colleague who's in the Netherlands, make sure that you share it with them because this is a little bit of a niche episode, but I think what you see from this is that if you are also running a, you know, maybe a smaller association or a running a regional chapter for this industry, these are some great thoughts about how you can, you know, really position the association to improve our network. Rianne, thank you so much for joining us. I love it. So fun. And I can't wait to see you again.  **Rianne van der Loo:** Thank you so much, Priscilla, for having me. It was really, really great. 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